What are you guys' opinions on redesigning keyboards?

A couple examples of the extreme case might be the FrogPad but in terms of just squeezing more in, what about the OLPC keyboard?

Would you miss print screen, scroll lock, pause/break, num lock, caps lock, or even any other keys, if they weren't there? what about right ctrl or right shift, or making function keys default to media keys without holding Fn?

Squeezing a usable keyboard into a Netbook sized device is a challenge, and removing keys is the only way to make space for bigger keys.. without increasing the base size which would put a >1 inch border around the lid and panel which is, let's be honest.. fugly.

What would you desperately love to get rid of? What would you keep? :D

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Matt Sealey

As I touch type, I use both shift keys, and caps lock (even for 2 continuous capital letters). I also use PrintScreen for screen shots, as in KDE4 it automagically brings up the appropriate application. I also use the function keys all the time, as my file manager of choice (mc) makes a good use of it.

If FreeBSD is not supported, I could live without scroll lock... I also don't mind loosing right control or pause/break.

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CzP
http://czanik.blogs.balabit.com/

Copy the LG x110 keyboard. It feels OK for me.

The EeePC 701/900 keyboard is a total failure.

Is it really any difference to a normal notebook keyboard? I don't see any difference other than it's small enough to fit in 10".
This is usually because 7" and 9" screens are so small, and the keyboard is directly proportional. I am not sure there is too big a problem when you scale past 10" but I think there is still improvement to be made.

I definitely think that;

* remove caps lock
* remove scroll lock
* remove num lock (useless on a notebook anyway)
* right control
* one of the windows keys (don't need two) and the menu key (being removed from Vista keyboards now, as Alt has always done the same thing..)

Will not annoy anyone, but;

* print screen/sysrq - print screen is useless but sysrq is useful for Linux debugging
* pause/break - same as above (isn't break the same as ctrl-z anyway?)

They could be aliased to Fn+FunctionKey easily enough I think or a combination using a custom keymap.

If you knock notebook function into Function Keys (brightness, audio control, etc.) then also alias usual media controls (play/pause, fwd, back, stop) you still have a lot left over for using as sysrq/whatever else.

This would basically give extra room on each row for the letter keys and allow a nice, large space bar (something I hate about notebook keyboards is the space bar is tiny because of the extra Fn key and the placing of the cursor keys). Insert and Delete can be the same key (on my VAIO Insert and Delete are seperate keys and Fn aliases them to Pause and Break.. isn't that odd?) - so pressing delete works as usual but Fn+Delete becomes Insert. I write a lot and sometimes Insert is handy but it's not a common key..

If we look at the LG netbook;



There are two keys next to Enter which are 2/3 the size of every other key. That's weird. Plus the enter key is big but, a backwards L to the one I am used to (on my current keyboard, enter is one row and smaller than shift..) - I think people would end up hitting enter+one of those other keys for sentences like this one';[

:)

Also... What are those two keys above the cursors?

There is definitely some benefit but it has to be weighed out against how these keys are used. I cannot find a great deal that rely on scroll lock, anything that scrolls past can be dealt with by grep, tail, less on a command line anyway and 90% of people would actually do this rather than try and beat the terminal with ancient keystrokes, I think..

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Matt Sealey

Take an old mechanical typewriter keyboard as a start, and then attempt to add as little keys as possible. You can't start with the idea of minimizing a keyboard and say "sysrq is useful for Linux debugging" almost immediately...

A research about keyboard usage is very easy: A trojan that silently installs on every computer, gathering keypresses statistics. I'd say that it would need only one day of data. And I'm sure that it has been done already dozens of times, but not for innocent keyboard statistics...

Or, take a very old and used keyboard, and keep the keys that are brightest (most used) and leave out those obscured by dirt (non used).

One has to accept that changing keyboard requires adaptation, it's all a matter of habit. Perhaps some pleople are used to use several keyboards on the same day.
This keyboard, coming from a Commodore PC/AT, has been with me in the past ten years, in only two different computers (yes, I treat computers THAT well). I suffer a lot when I have to use any other keyboard, all of them feel like crap to me, no matter if they are "better" than this budget membrane one.
Of course, it hasn't got any "Windows" keys, and I've never felt they are of any real use whatsoever. As for the function keys, only "F1" is needed (brings up help documents in that certain operating system), and only for those who actually READ help documents (0.001% world population), so you can scrap function keys alltogether.
Hell, function keys! Used in terminals and, in general, command line user interfaces, something going back to, what, thisty years now? Is there anything else OLDER in this world than keyboards?

Function keys are used all the time. Switching terminals in Linux for example. SysRq debugging in Linux is rare but it would hinder the ability for users to build bug report data that needed a SysRq output (SuSE installer lockups etc. in the past). There needs to be a way to invoke this stuff somehow even if it is making another key act as SysRq when an innocuous combination is selected (Fn+F12 or so).

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Matt Sealey

Neko:
The keys above the cursors are Pg Up and Dn.

The EeePC keyboard is a real failure. Even
their 900-model has the same crappy keyboard..

By looking at the Acer Aspire One it doesn't
have much to do with the 8.9".. The Acer key-
board is a lot better than Asus'.

The LG has a great keyboard. Granted, it also
has a 10" screen, which I suggest you focus on
as well. The latest Netbooks have 10" screens.

I usually see those aliased to the cursor keys - Fn+Left is Home, Fn+Right is End, Up and Down are obvious. What do they have on the cursor keys then?
Already focusing on that, you might be pleased to know.

There's not much use outside of toy notebooks for an 7 or 8" model - 9" becomes more useful but the keyboard is still constrained. 10" you can fit a slightly smaller (90%) keyboard on, but I want to see damn-near full sized keys. If you use a netbook for email or web browsing or cloud computing (google docs etc.) you definitely need to be able to type on it comfortably.

This may mean ditching a few of the least-used ones (caps lock etc.). I might draw a pic of what I imagine it'd look like, but we decided we wouldn't actually go into it in the design document as there are better companies to do keyboard design. I am just collecting opinions.

At the moment, too, I'm erring on the side of Apple/Sony style inset keys like the Eee Keyboard, since while there are a lot of whiners out there who hate them, I like them, Bill likes them, they're not provably worse ergonomically and in fact they may be far, far better.



The dimensions of the above pictured keyboard are something like 11" by 5" which is not perfect for a screen with a 10" diagonal (since it's too big at ~12"). This is why some keys need to go. But I do like the placing of the cursor keys no further right than the enter key and no further below than the space bar - they're just a tad too small though.. A little finesse could come up with a great keymap with keys of a very reasonable size, without reducing the size of the important keys way way too much.

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Matt Sealey

That keyboard looks quite like the one featured in an italian article about the new ARM based netbook from freescale... which also references the LimeBook!

The LimePC uses the 5121e. The netbook Freescale announced last week uses the i.MX515. Here is another article:

http://www.itexaminer.com/freescale-sma ... -atom.aspx

R&B :)

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http://bbrv.blogspot.com

I think that windows logo is protected and needs to be licensed? So away it goes? Maybe a butterfly instead? ;-)
A keyboard without two shift keys would be too restrained to be useful. A caps lock is needed as well IMHO, but maybe you could achieve that function by double pressing the two shifts at the same time, or use ALT+Shift or some other combination? AltGr is useful as well (even though Ctrl+Alt replaces that).

I *could* live without a right windows key as well as the right Ctrl key. PageUP/Down/Home/End - throw them away!

But please *make sure* that you don't throw away the reserved keys used by various national keyboards! In the Swedish language for example, there are three national letters, Å Ä Ö, and on the Swedish QWERTY layout Å is positioned to the right of P, and Ö Ä are both positioned to the right of L, look here for reference, and many other national layouts uses the same keys. Such things are important to keep in mind!

PS.
If you really want to save space, look here! ;-)

Well, if caps-lock functionality can be kept somehow (fn+shift), I don't mind if the actual button is gone. Still, a status led for it would be nice (but not a requirement).

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CzP
http://czanik.blogs.balabit.com/

I agree.
No. "Caps lock" is evil and should be destroyed, as enyone knows.
I always have it on in my keyboard, so a switch for it is unnecesary. I don't require a numeric keypad either.
I realized that I actually used the right "Control" key when its contact wore out so much it's almost unusable in my old keyboard. Using only the left one was not traumatic for me. Perhaps the same can be said for the right "Shift" hey.
Defenetly. All keyboards have excess of keys, function keys stopped made sense twenty years ago. As for media keys, I doubt they are much used at all, and they should have replaced function keys... but nobody dared to do so, and so they were added, raising the redundancy factor even more.
Not only that, time has come for a revision of the anciest Human Interface Device. By the way, I've looked at the Apple "wheel" keyboard, and can't help but think it's a joke.

I would get used to it in a couple of days.
Hell, no! :-D
Brilliant idea... But it requires two "Shift" keys.
Better, in my opinion. Any way of making caps lock more difficult is welcome.
But not required...
...as you say, precisely. By the way, is there really a need for THREE key modifiers (Shift, Alt and Control)?
I got very used to them with all these years on PC keyboards, but the Amiga's made this funtions with modifiers and cursor keys, so I would say yes too.
Of course. Spanish keyboards have, aside from a different layout, an additional key in the third row, just at the left of "Carriage return". It's very rarely used, so...
I think that's merely layout, not additional keys? My spanish keyboard would also have space for that "Å" key (replacing the "`" key, never used), and there's also space for your "Ö" and "Ä" (replacing "Ñ" and "´", really used).

It is! ;-)

(Look at it again, carefully. Every single thing they say and do is a parody on Apple and its customers!)

But still, when I read some comments here I must make some evil suggestion of it being at least *slightly* relevant. I mean, when suggestions comes up that will make the keyboard difficult/unusable for *actually writing text*, then I think one should raise the question what netbooks will be used for? If the ability to comfortably write real texts in the standard way is not a priority on netbooks (for some strange reason), and the keys are supposed to be merely used for URL typing or such, then perhaps "the wheel" would be better than an unusable keyboard? It would indeed be useless for writing text, but at least it would make the product stand out from the crowd...
Keyboards has had two shift keys since, well since *always*, and the whole typing methodology is based on this fact. Everyone who has bothered to learn *proper* typing (unlike pointing the keys with your index fingers) *needs* this.

There are some things you simply don't do. Like removing the wheels from a car. And removing one of the shift keys from a keyboard. ;-)
Easily accessed Caps Lock *functionality* is essential for anyone who uses their keyboard for actually writing text. Turning it on/off by simultaneously pressing both shift keys would be an acceptable compromise IMHO, but the functionality must be there. And preferably a LED as well (on the left shift for instance).
That's what I'm saying. There are keys to the right of the P and L that's necessary to keep, and can't be thrown away in the effort to strip the keyboard in the quest of making it smaller.

I'd prefer something totally incongruous and non-specific. Apple has their "Command" key which is designed around that lovely clover icon; this is an internationally recognized symbol.

I'd say, use that, although it could confuse Mac users, it does look a lot like the Windows symbol if styled right (at least has four "windows" on it).

Other alternatives may be the manufacturer of the laptop or whatever. A butterfly or penguin or apple or so, means the keyboard is tied to an OS, and everyone knows, you don't
run one OS on a computer these days :D
Nobody who touch types uses caps lock in my experience. There are very very few things which need to be typed all in capitals, which cannot be done by holding shift TOO SINCE I CAN TYPE FAIRLY WELL LIKE THIS ANYWAY at the cost of my little finger being out of the game (I never use it to type anyway :)
Anyone editing code or sending large emails or quickly using a webpage will use these keys. Getting rid of them means word processing needs the mouse. Fn+cursor works well on laptops though and most importantly is as intuitive as capitalizing a letter.
I would never propose modifying the basic layout of the keyboard - QWERTY (or AZERTY or QWERTZ or any other combination) with the [{ }] :; "' keys to the right of the top two rows is essential.

Left shift and right shift, are essential to touch typing as it's meant to be, but they needn't take up a quarter of the fourth row :)

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Matt Sealey