But how could you possibly be surprised? The MPC5200B is a SoC, and almost all of the Efikas (at least in the first design) features comes from the specs in that SoC. The features of the 5200 are well known, and they are set in stone. The Efika was supposed to be a two chip computer, the 5200 and GFX, with the scope of being as small as possible, as cheap as possible, as low power (as in Watt) as possible, you must keep that in mind!



If you ask me, it would be a joke to base a NAS on USB harddrives in the first place (and if you want external drives, wouldn't firewire be better anyway?). For a NAS, it would be much better to simply drop the GFX, drop the FPGA, and add a standard SiI0680A "PCI to IDE" chip (or similar) instead. Then you would have a cheap and highly specialized hardware with the possibility of using up to 6 IDE drives, at "real" speed.



You are assuming that the PCI slot will remain in the design? Maybe it will, I don't know, but AFAIK that was put on the board at an early design stage in order to try out different GFX (and other) solutions, for evaluation purpose. AFAIK it was always said that the slot should go away when those things was brought on board the mainboard PCB.

Anyway, the obvious scope of the Efika has always been to build a device that is as *small*, *cheap*, and *energy efficient* as possible. If you just keep adding things to the design, then you would be going in the exact *opposite* direction. I can think of *a lot* of things that I would like to put on that PCB, a USB2 controller is one of them, but there are so many more things if you have a little imagination. But the more you put in, the bigger the board will get, the higher the cost will be, and the higher power consumption you'll get. And everything would have to sit on the same PCI-bus (since the 5200 has only got *one* AFAIK), which wouldn't exactly do wonders for performance. That's why I think a FPGA is a great idea. That too will add cost, size and energy consumption and share the PCI, but the benefits of being able to add such things as extra USB (even USB2 perhaps?), Ethernet, hardware encoders/decoders, you name it, according to the application needs, *without* changing the base mainboard design, outweights the cons IMHO. Far from all applications needs USB2, and for those applications that *don't* need it, it would be a *disadvantage* from the scope of the Efika's Point of View.

Takemehomegrandma:
"AFAIK it was always said that the slot should go
away when those things was brought on board the
mainboard PCB. "

I have never seen this statement anywhere. In the beginning
there were discussions whether to use PCI or AGP and
I have always been in favour of PCI.

Yes, I know very well that the 5200B only has USB 1.1
which i think is too bad. But that's the way it is.

Many consumer home NAS-devices has free USB 2.0 ports
for easily adding more drives. Firewire is alot faster
than USB 2.0, but less external harddrives use it.

Oh, will you come to PUSH or are you "banging" again? ;)

this thread is starting to get rather interesting, keep it up people :P

there appears to be two schools of thought here right now, and i take all the points as valid.

school(1) of thought seems to be 'low power' is everything, as in, must at all costs keep that amps/watts/current as low as possible.

school(2) of thought seems to be low power is OK as long as we have a 'current tec' base PCB that most developers can add their own custom PCB/card and
are willing to sacrifice some amps/watts/current.

is that a fair assesment?.

for my part and i'v had this wish for many years, is that any final base should be capable of running off
nothing more than a standard single 12v DC (or less)
such as you find on most wireless/network and car
kit, without the need for a power inverter that wasts
those amps/watts/current in conversion.

its interesting that the NAS keeps popping up as if you look at just about all the current NAS and related wired/wireless kit they all seem to be (with few exeptions that dont seem to sell so well) at a point now that the hackers want to turn them into true self-contained user computers.

as an example see the roofnet initative
http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/roofnet/doku.php
that uses the Netgear WGT634U. and and just one 3rd party linux firmware http://forum.openwrt.org/viewtopic.php?id=33

more later perhaps....

Have a look ag Genesi's "EFIKA Gallery" - note the two additional USB 1.1 controllers (between the MPC5200B and what I assume are additional USB headers near the other ports). Is it really such a stretch to hope that since a board that Genesi are showcasing in the "EFIKA Gallery" has extra USB controllers, that the final design for the EFIKA may also incorporate extra USB controllers, but of the current standard?

I'm not saying the EFIKA must have Hi-Speed USB 2.0, but for a compact board to be used in an ultra-portable or embedded application, adding a PCI card just to support Hi-Speed USB really doesn't make a lot of sense.

I'll probably be "banging" this time too. Hadn't Göteborg been at the other side of the world, or had I been a "flying Jesus" (wasn't it you who created that term? ;-)), then it would have been no problem. At least I made a quick stop at the AmiGBG last summer on my way up from down-south. Besides, I have a house to build (and probably a business as well), so I will have other areas to spend both time and money during this spring/summer ... :-)

Lets not get into this circular discussion of how all Genesi hardware designs inherently suck for not using the latest standards.. again; you are working yourselves up for nothing.

Please look at this NOT from a "numbers game" but from the POV of a system designer who has to evaluate what peripherals can be sourced and which ones impact the cost effective nature of the board to add or remove. The USB ports on the 5200B are designed in around the premise of supporting input devices, low-bandwidth things like touchscreens or LED panels and so on. This is the intention on the EFIKA.

When we first introduced the EFIKA we got complaints that it had no onboard video. Now we announce a graphics chip partner, we have complaints that onboard video is too much..

There is a balancing act in all things.

So, think about your proposed projects a little more, instead of writing it off because you cannot use a USB device at "high speed".

I hope we will have full specifications and a new board gallery in the near future. Let's hold off on this, and wait for this documentation, and we can all work from facts and not speculation. Even the specs Bill posted on this very thread are now out of date and wrong :)

I'm certainly not trying to suggest Genesi hardware designs "suck". Nor, as I tried to make abundantly clear, am I suggesting that the EFIKA must have Hi-Speed USB 2.0 to be useful. I am simply suggesting a few of the areas where Hi-Speed USB might be extremely useful, and which are not really suited to the addition of a dedicated PCI card - however, I understand that the EFIKA cannot be all things to all people.

Takemehomegrandma: That's too bad, would have been nice
to finally meet you.. You ignored the PUGS stand at AmiGBG.. :/

Anyway..

Neko: Are you really that surprised that people want USB 2.0
on the EFIKA? It's abit like buying a new car without
airbags.. :) It is the standard and since the gallery
pics seem to have seperate USB-controllers they can't
be alot cheaper than a 2.0-controller. Just look at
SDRAM - it costs more than DDR, today..

Anyway..

We'll see what the final EFIKA looks like.

I did *not*, and I have photos to prove it! :-)

I think you all were at some seminar, maybe it was the dude from IBM. And I could only stay for a very short time (my time was limited from the start, and I completely wasted a lot of time just searching for the darn spårvagn, so after the travel time forward and back, it wasn't much time left)! I spoke a few words to Gunne though. At least *he* was paying attention to the visitors of his booth! ;-)

Thing is usb is quite useful on a device with limited expansion options. virtually all kind of peripherals are avaialble for usb, while staying with full speed usb, they all must share one common 12MB bus. That is not nothing, but, well...
There will always be some 'complaining'. But it isn't meant contra productive, but quite the opposite. Noone doubts Gerald and Thomas wouldn't knew their business. But in the end you wanna sell. If we are your potential customers it is wise to listen to our demands (but of course you have the bit unthankful position to find the optimum result ;-) ).
I am seeing forward to Efika anyway, be it with fast or high speed usb. But I'd be glad if there would be high speed usb.

@Neko:

>Now we announce a graphics chip partner, we have complaints that onboard video is too much..

Well, that only means you have to upgrade from a handcrank to a footpedal to power this thing! ;-)

But seriously, did the takeover of XGI by ATI change anything so far?
Does this constellation offer more/less possibilities now (also concerning OSW)?

The two ISP1105?

There is a VERY BIG difference between a transceiver and a controller.

It has just as much expansion potential as a Via EPIA already on the board, doesn't it?

I do not agree that there is any potential usage for the EFIKA where adding a PCI card instead of a USB stick is undesirable - or that any other solution would not present itself above and beyond buying USB sticks.

The extra height of a PCI riser to lay it flat over the board is negligible. For "embedded" use in robotics, kiosk, thin client, PVR, IP Phone, clustering, there is no problem here.

Imagine an Apple iBook. When you want Bluetooth and Wireless functionality, what do you do to it? Well, Apple ship an adapter internally for all of this. What they do not do is plug 2 6cm USB sticks into the side of it and ship it to you and say "well this is good enough for you". Mechanically it is silly and it is aesthetically wrong. I doubt you are going to be designing devices on the basis that you need to buy 2 external USB sticks and dangle them off the back of the device.

Are you thinking about a bigger picture here, yet?

The one big advantage of usb is is that is easy expandable *by the user*. But I see you point and agree to that (well, at least I agree limited ;-)).
And as long as the design keeps its pci port, it has all the flexibility needed. As said I am looking forward to the Efika, it'll rock!

Stealing this, now silent, thread. :-)

Are board schematics available anywhere?